Curse

kazjun · Oct 02, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

People don't power their teams with N/Rt healers because SR was already nerfed so that they only get energy from their OWN spirits. So no, there's no team build for spirit spammers. But spirits do provide energy for their owners. So yes, there are N/Rt builds in pve.

zamial · Oct 02, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

Sould Reaping: Whenever a hostile creature within Earshot dies, you gain 1 point of energy for each rank in Soul Reaping.

This is balance in that 1) you may no longer score the energy gain from allied spirits that die as well as your team has to successfully be able to kill enemies in order for you as the Necro to gain back your energy and 2) the huge range of Soul Reaping's triggering was unfair but reducing it down to Earshot makes the Necro push up a little more in order to gain the energy he's starving for.

I don't propose this as a method of butchering Necros because Necros have a lot of high-costing energy spells (especially in Curses). Why couldn't they make Divine favor just as godly as this and make it to where whenever you heal a teammate you gain some energy back. Pretty imbalanced eh?

If you want your Necro to get his energy back from deaths, actually be a good team and kill things. If you can't do that why should you be rewarded for your own teammate deaths?

Where anywhere in this original post does it say anything AT ALL about only allied spirits??????

Ya it doesn't.......

It also nerfs the range. and any benifit a soul reaping necro gains from ANY allied deaths.

with 60 AL I don't need to hear my enemies die to harvest there souls.

ya bonds should only last while in earshot, see how dumb that sounds????

/NOT SIGNED
/COMPLETELY WRONG

legion_rat · Oct 02, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

/notsigned

no more nerfs on SR. Its bad enough as it is. Anet could have simply revoked the energy from spirits and left it as it was but chose not to. Why make it worse on the necros and necro heros.

~the rat~

Nadia Roark · Oct 02, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Imagine if DF was on a timer, you only get a DF bonus every 3 minute or something. Deaths are hard to control as opposed to channelling where you know and have some control over when you get your energy. And you can bet that most will be on a N/Rt like white on rice as soon as the spirits drop.

*bangs head on wall*

Deaths are not hard to control when your own team is letting spirits + pets die and replacing them as necessary. Enemy deaths are harder to control than channeling, but they're not a requirement for the Spirit Reaping battery to work, whereas channeling is. Please, I'm dyin' over here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

A +1 to SR isn't exactly that big a deal considering we're already sinking 10+ points into the attrib anyway. Especially since we carry practically no other skills for it. So we are in fact sinking a third of our points into something purely for passive effect.

Again, they're "sinking" points into SR because of the advantage it gains, not in spite of it. And I would argue that it being a passive effect is a bonus, since it requires no skill slot. Anything viable for a monk would; as DF cannot possibly be considered on par with SR for energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And who do you think can keep people alive longer, a runed up monk, or a runed up necro.

It depends of course on how good they are, but assuming overall equality I'd say the monk would fare better by himself but the necro would outperform him if the rest of the team aws thrown into consideration.

Broken Record Time again (yay!), this is probably the reason why ANet will leave it as-is, since it's a more team-oriented strategy and that seems to be what they're encouraging. For this reason (and many others), I've known for some time now that my rants probably aren't going to accomplish anything. It's just that SR from spirits has always been a hot topic for me (as a PvP monk); so I haven't been able to resist this thread for better or worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Yes, SR allows free movement. But are you saying that's unfair since we don't have to stop to cast for energy management? You do realise that a monk can live off 1/4 cast spells, but if I want to spirit spam I'm sitting there long enough to cop eviserate in the face and then an interrupt while I'm helpless? And unable to kite? You can almost charge cripslash from scratch in the time it takes to lay a spirit. A monk with channeling can kite like crazy and still keep up under heavy pressure teams. So who's got free movement?

Just an observation, the last sentence of that paragraph, read immediately after the first, is hilarious. But all joking aside, you've made some good points;t unfortunately it's nothing that hasn't already been covered. I'm not saying the Spirit Battery can't be countered, and I'm not saying it doesn't have any drawbacks. For all the complaining I've done it might surprise you to learn that I actually don't usually lose to it very often; but I really think the prevalance of this particular character role speaks for itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

If necro's as a class are so godly, why isn't every team composed of necro casters? You think HA is full of IV spike teams or something?

Funny you'd ask that, since it's actually happened three or four times in the past. Old Bspike used to be 7 Necros and a Ranger Spammer, or 6 Necros, a Monk (gasp!) and a Ranger. Even after that went away, necro dominated teams rebounded at least twice. Necros have been the most widely used character class in (presumably) effective HA "fame farming" builds dating back to IWAY.

Necros are godly; they're used accordinly and always have been. Just because they've been hit a couple of times doesn't mean they're not still the best. For example, Nature's Renewal is still one of the better spirits around and its effect has been wildly changed several times by the devs. Does anyone remember when it dropped all enchants and hexes when it hit the board? woah!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Yeah, N/Rt can put down some good healing, and some condition removal but have pretty much no hex removal.

Granted, they rely on a Rt/Me with Expel Hexes. I'm not suggesting Spirit Batteries are without drawbacks, and I've exploited this weakness to beat it on many occasions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Unlike monks. Most necro skills are slow or energy intensive.

We don't have much in the way of hex removal either in most cases; unless you're running spotless mind, 2 veils isn't going to do too much more than the Ritualist's Expel anyway.

Also, the skills used by necros when healing are obviously very short casts. I don't see many N/Rts healing their team with 1+ second casts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Unlike the mass of 5en 1/4 cast monk spells.

Which I love. Hooray!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And if you actually take down the spirits, we're pretty much helpless. You ever tried playing spiritway when your opponents have NR, QZ and energising down? And you got a train of warrs and assass locked on your rear? Or to stand there and look on while they pull out unnatural sig, banishing or any form of AoE at all? Spiritway is pretty much all or nothing. Yeah, we spank most of the noob teams. But any experienced or prepared team will wipe us pretty much 100%. I'd hardly call that overpowered.

Son, please. I've played and seen a lot wierder things than you can imagine, and I know how spiritway works and how to kill it. I'm not motioning for a nerf because I think it's entirely unmanageable or unbeatable, I'm just irritated that for so long now, necros have been the über casting class in GW and now they've infringed on my precious backline.

I underrstand that ANet is allowing this as an encouragement of team-based play, but I'm an old fashioned bastard and I like the idea of carrying my team. I became and stayed a monk because, basically, I don't want to have to rely on anyone else to keep the team up. I understand that N/Rts do, and I also understand that that's probably why they're not going anywhere. So if you're going to have class loyalties at least allow me mine!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

As for monks being equal to necro's, you can't compare apple to oranges. Team roles are different. That'd be like saying monks should be nerfed since prot makes a mockery of warriors. Prot monk > warrior, so it's imbalanced, right? Roles are different. If you're saying a N/Mo is more useful than a Mo/N than maybe you can compare. But as is, it's like you're saying a N/Rt is more useful than a Mo/Rt. In which case I'd agree. Mainly cause a monks better off being a specialist, rather than crazy mixes of secondaries.

*head -> wall*

Saying "Roles are different" leads me to believe (once more) that you're not paying too much attention. The only place where is am comparing Monks to Necros is in 8v8 backlines. So no, their roles are not different. I'm comparing Necros as healers to Monks as healers, assuming the requisites for 8v8 emanagement on both have been met.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Anyway, does that answer some of your arguments? Not even mentioning the who lot of other reasons for not nerfing. I won't even touch the whole "I don't care about pve" bit.

I did not say I didn't care about PvE. I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

The real issue here ... I suspect, is whether the game should be balanced around PvP or PvE. I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to pick sides, but as a general rule it's fairly easy to run pretty much whatever you want in PvE, and you'll manage somehow.

I'm not saying I don't care about PvE, but since the opposition in PvE is automated, it's natually easier to find things that work there. What kind of effect would dropping Spirit SR have on PvE? I honestly don't know.

A_Muppet · Oct 02, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I remember the discussions about energy stealing being like this, and look what happened to that. Poor bloody mesmers energy stealing skills as a source of energy (coupled with the high energy costs of almost every mesmer spell) are useless now...

But anyways. I think SR is fine the way it is.

Healers Wisper · Oct 02, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I called BiP and BR "open-ended" because, even though they usually are, these skills don't have to be used exclusively on the backline (whereas backline skills should be used on targets taking damage or about to take damage; otherwise they're wasted). Usually if a team has it, the players will keep it in the back of their heads and will call for a BiP (regardless of their character class) whenever they feel they need energy. In that sense it's more of a party-wide support skill rather than a strictly backline one.

This quote comes from your obvious bias twords Monks. Just because BiP dont heal or protect directly, in pressure situation without this backline support monks would be hard pressed to do their job properly. Necros, depending on build, can be andwhere from midline (ss, mm, sv) to backline (BiP and orders) wheather or not you wan to admit that. a char who is supporting and not fighting is in a backline role, period.

As for attacking the Soul Reaping again, I say NO. yes my primary is a Necro so I guess I am biased. but Soul Reaping has been unfairly attacked because people think its overpowered. Necromancers transfrom death and health into energy. We must use large amount of energy and sacrifice health for skills more than anyother class. Soul reaping balances this out. With out the current mechanics or a non-nerf supplement, Necro's would be rendered useless. that is flat out rediculous. Stop attacking SR, its not like Necros have unlimited energy anymore.

If you have a problem with the spirit way build, be creative, adapt and overcome it. don't come onto the forums and complain that you can't beat spiritway so that team build has to bve nerfed. QQ. /end rant

Nadia Roark · Oct 02, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healers Wisper

This quote comes from your obvious bias twords Monks. Just because BiP dont heal or protect directly, in pressure situation without this backline support monks would be hard pressed to do their job properly. Necros, depending on build, can be andwhere from midline (ss, mm, sv) to backline (BiP and orders) wheather or not you wan to admit that. a char who is supporting and not fighting is in a backline role, period.

As for attacking the Soul Reaping again, I say NO. yes my primary is a Necro so I guess I am biased. but Soul Reaping has been unfairly attacked because people think its overpowered. Necromancers transfrom death and health into energy. We must use large amount of energy and sacrifice health for skills more than anyother class. Soul reaping balances this out. With out the current mechanics or a non-nerf supplement, Necro's would be rendered useless. that is flat out rediculous. Stop attacking SR, its not like Necros have unlimited energy anymore.

If you have a problem with the spirit way build, be creative, adapt and overcome it. don't come onto the forums and complain that you can't beat spiritway so that team build has to bve nerfed. QQ. /end rant

Learn2readkthx. This was covered a while ago, and backline means different things to different people. If that's how you see it, fine, I don't really care. But the "backline" I'm talking about in context with Spirit Reaping is a strictly healing role; a comparison between Monks and N/Rts for PvP emanagement. Whether a bunch of other necro skills that most of them don't use to begin with are "backline" or not is immaterial to my case.

You seem to be concerned about necros being "rendered useless"... based on what? What is it you think I want to do to SR? Have you been reading at all?

kazjun · Oct 03, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I underrstand that ANet is allowing this as an encouragement of team-based play, but I'm an old fashioned bastard and I like the idea of carrying my team. I became and stayed a monk because, basically, I don't want to have to rely on anyone else to keep the team up. I understand that N/Rts do, and I also understand that that's probably why they're not going anywhere. So if you're going to have class loyalties at least allow me mine!

Saying "Roles are different" leads me to believe (once more) that you're not paying too much attention. The only place where is am comparing Monks to Necros is in 8v8 backlines. So no, their roles are not different. I'm comparing Necros as healers to Monks as healers, assuming the requisites for 8v8 emanagement on both have been met.

So, you want your monk to be able to single handedly carry a team, but you consider a N/Rt who's effectiveness is pretty conditional and one dimensional overpowered?

And if you believe that I'm not paying attention, then you're not listening to anyone. Nerfing SR DOES NOT ONLY AFFECT 8v8 backlines. It effects a whole slew of things, including pve. You remember jagged, right? Now that was energy management. And when that got nerfed, do you think it was only 8v8 teams that suffered? Pve MM's copped it too. I'm not saying jagged didn't deserve to be nerfed, I'm saying that nerfing something should be thought through. Just saying that YOU can't see how it would effect pve doesn't mean that it wouldn't effect some necros in pve. And from the sound of things, you haven't even considered it cause you think it doesn't matter.

And by the way, why are you just considering energy management between monks and N/Rts? Shouldn't you be considering effectiveness at keeping a team alive? If you're only looking at monks vs N/Rts, I'd take the monk everytime at keeping me alive. You may say that necros can do everything, but if you're talking strict healing backlines, a monk has more variety and options than any N/Rt.

Dimitri_Stucoff · Oct 03, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I just say leave soul reaping alone or return it to it's former state minus the energy from spirits. SR has the least number of skills in it, the necro class has the fewest number of e-mangement skills, and most necro skills have a 1-2 second cast time and cost upwards of 10 energy, the skills tend to have a 10-20 second recharge, for SR to be useful to a necromancer we have to invest a good 1/3 to 1/2 of our points into it (both in energy return and skill wize). To further nerf soul reaping would rip the soul out of the necromancer class as they require soul reaping in order to cast spells with their limited 40-50 energy pool cause they don't exactly have many cheap quick spamable skills that do not sac life off. Granted we do get 3 surges of energy every 15 second, but in general that only yeilds a necromancer 10-13 energy a surge... or roughly 3 necro spells.. or 6 second casting. Before you nerf the necro SR class, please attempt to play a necro without SR at all and then you might understand more on how it works to keep the class playable. Ever wonder why Anet reduced so many necro skills costs when they made it so you got one surge every 5 seconds? They might be trying to say something... like maybe SR is needed in order for necromancers to cast their own spells.

Comparing SR to divine favor, I know it is a can of worms, apples to oranges. SR is conditional passive, we get extra energy when something dies. Divine favor is simply passive, no conditions on it. You cast yourself a spell on someone that heals and you get an extra heal on top of that increasing your effectiveness, that and divine favor has a wide array of skill in it , and many useful skills have a divine favor element to them (contemplate, bless sig etc) So it is not that SR is better by a large margine, it is just divine favor is like a good mesmer, you really cant see the effect of it because it does not seem to be dealing much damage, it simply smooths things along. While SR is like a good tank, it does its job given the conditons are right. Heck you know how much SR energy a necro gets vs the factions boss shiro? Not much at all.. till your teamates die.

Also concerning the N/Rt. Rt spells are really slow casting.. just interupt the necro casting, not that hard to counter, that or simply kill the spirits, lots of spells which are super effective against that sort of thing. I myself have played a N/Rt healer, and found it rather slow on healing, that and the heals were not huge like a monk.

So end point, just leave SR alone let them fix the issues already in the game then we can attempt to fix this stuff, and the poor mesmer class in general.

Nadia Roark · Oct 03, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

So, you want your monk to be able to single handedly carry a team, but you consider a N/Rt who's effectiveness is pretty conditional and one dimensional overpowered?

I think you're reading a bit too heavily into the wrong things. I didn't point that out in defense of my arguments, but rather as the reason why I was raising those arguments to begin with. Monk is a lot harder to play effectively than N/Rt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And if you believe that I'm not paying attention, then you're not listening to anyone. Nerfing SR DOES NOT ONLY AFFECT 8v8 backlines. It effects a whole slew of things, including pve. You remember jagged, right? Now that was energy management. And when that got nerfed, do you think it was only 8v8 teams that suffered? Pve MM's copped it too. I'm not saying jagged didn't deserve to be nerfed, I'm saying that nerfing something should be thought through. Just saying that YOU can't see how it would effect pve doesn't mean that it wouldn't effect some necros in pve. And from the sound of things, you haven't even considered it cause you think it doesn't matter.

Ugh. I have asked, point blank, at least twice already, what effect Spirit Reaping would have on PvE Necro functionality. No one has answered, and the lack of any such elucidation has got me a bit suspicious. I'm not talking about "Nerfing SR" in a broad or over-arching sense (certainly not even anything on par with the timer nonsesnse); I'm just talking about dropping SR from spirits and removing the timer.

Here I must make another important point, since many people seem to be arguing with me on entirely false premises (I know I've written a lot, but if you actually read it all, it really helps). Many have lept to SR's defense by invoking the costs/conditions of Necromancer Spells, which you need to realize are not used in a N/Rt backline build. Again: N/Rts do not use any necromancer skills. Got it? So I'm not really complaining about SR in general; I'm complaining that SR is being exploited as not only a passive battery, but one that's better than just about every other active battery in the game.

Back when ANet nerfed things like "Incoming!" and "Shields Up!" they presented the reasoning that they were trying to do away with passive party protection in PvP. They claimed they were trying to move PvP into a more proactive environment. What did we get? We got a stale meta where N/Rts and their cohorts let spirits and pets do a great deal of the legwork for them. Again, I don't think the build (as a whole) is overpowered, but the backline can be; and very much so.

If you really think, after all I've written on the subject, that I'm advocating a "SR Nerf" without "thinking it through," I somehow doubt any amount of exposition would ever be sufficient, regarless of its accuracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And by the way, why are you just considering energy management between monks and N/Rts? Shouldn't you be considering effectiveness at keeping a team alive?

Um, because effective emanagement is required for keeping a team alive for any meaningful amount of time under any meaningful amount of pressure. Because my whole argument is that the N/Rt Spirit Battery (emanagement) is both more powerful and easier to use than any viable monk alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

If you're only looking at monks vs N/Rts, I'd take the monk everytime at keeping me alive.

Then you don't know what you're talking about. In HA at least N/Rts are usually more successful, which is part of the reason why they're so much more common than monks. I would guess, off the top of my head, that about half of all casters in HA at any one time ar N/Rts. Maybe a little less than half, but not by much. Go there sometime and check out the party screen; watch the chat and tell me how many "N/Rt LFG" you see versus "Ele/Mes/Monk/whatever LFG." Based on some of the arguments I've heard from you so far, you might actually be surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

You may say that necros can do everything, but if you're talking strict healing backlines, a monk has more variety and options than any N/Rt.

Again, I'm not saying Spirit Batteries aren't without their limitations or conditions; I'm simply contending that those conditions are more easily met (mainly since you don't have to maintain enchants or stand in certain places) and are usually more powerful once they are. One or the other would be fine, but that's a one-two punch that smacks of IMBA to me. Thankfully most people don't know how to take full advantage of it (and insist on running things like trappers alongside them, which have absolutely zero effect on a team that knows what its doing), so it doesn't always do as well it could.

I'll grant that the N/Rt build is pretty standard and doesn't allow for a wide degree of variation, but that doesn't make it any less powerful under the conditions which it is built to operate.

Curse You · Oct 03, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Nerfing Soul Reaping further would ruin what's left of MMs. They have a hard enough time keeping up their energy the way it currently is.

As well, most SS necromancers would be screwed, as they commonly will move in, cast SS, then run away so they don't get killed. They already get pretty shafted by Soul Reaping as it is.

Don't even get me started on Orders and BiP necromancers. Any intelligent person who is going to be sacrificing health continuously is going to stay as far from enemies as possible.

You're argument is moot, you're solution is full of flaws, and you just seem to be too full of yourself.

Nadia Roark · Oct 03, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Nerfing Soul Reaping further would ruin what's left of MMs. They have a hard enough time keeping up their energy the way it currently is.

NEWS FLASH! Spirits aren't Minions. My SR rework would enhance MM functionality by removing the silly 5 second timer. Dropping SR from spirits would not have the slightest effect on MMs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

As well, most SS necromancers would be screwed, as they commonly will move in, cast SS, then run away so they don't get killed. They already get pretty shafted by Soul Reaping as it is.

Wrong again! SS necromancers do not rely on spirit batteries to keep their energy up. Again, if anything, they'd be better off as well by removing the timer. You've clearly not paid a lick of attention to my posts, and it's obvious you're just reading enough to assume the rest is "ZOMG NERF SR SOME MOAR"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Don't even get me started on Orders and BiP necromancers. Any intelligent person who is going to be sacrificing health continuously is going to stay as far from enemies as possible.

You're argument is moot, you're solution is full of flaws, and you just seem to be too full of yourself.

I don't think, based on what you've said here, that you even know what "my solution" is. Get out of my face with that garbage, please.

jrk247 · Oct 03, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

SR is fine, Anet did the testing and made it how it is atm they will not make anymore changes to it.

End of story. It's good that you have ideas, but Anet isn't going to change SR which is fine atm just for one or 2 people out of the whole necro player base.

Nadia Roark · Oct 03, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I'm not really expecting or demanding any changes, to be honest. The only real reason I'm taking it as far as I have is because of the exasperating crap people keep throwing at me.

Just wait till you see what this next guy says...

Curse You · Oct 03, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

NEWS FLASH! Spirits aren't Minions. My SR rework would enhance MM functionality by removing the silly 5 second timer. Dropping SR from spirits would not have the slightest effect on MMs.

Wrong again! SS necromancers do not rely on spirit batteries to keep their energy up. Again, if anything, they'd be better off as well by removing the timer. You've clearly not paid a lick of attention to my posts, and it's obvious you're just reading enough to assume the rest is "ZOMG NERF SR SOME MOAR"

I don't think, based on what you've said here, that you even know what "my solution" is. Get out of my face with that garbage, please.

Really?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Sould Reaping: Whenever a hostile creature within Earshot dies, you gain 1 point of energy for each rank in Soul Reaping.

Hmmm.

You know, you can edit your posts.

Nadia Roark · Oct 03, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Really?

You know, you can edit your posts.

Uhh... that wasn't my post, genius. I've not defended that idea once, and have no intention of doing so. I'm not implicitly agreeing with everything the OP said (as I've already said), and I've not /signed on his ideas.

holababe · Oct 03, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

Well think about it. How lame is it for Soul Reaping to trigger only 3 times in 15 min?

It triggers per 15 seconds, not per 15 minutes.

Curse You · Oct 03, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by holababe

It triggers per 15 seconds, not per 15 minutes.

I think the OPs lack of knowledge relating to Soul Reaping's current workings was already noted on the first or second page.

Apok Omen · Oct 03, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

OMFG!!! Soul Reaping is being abused??????? Since when?!!?!?!?!? Everyone knows that necros only gain energy when things die, and that happens almost never! Geez, necros being overpowered, who ever heard of such a crackpot idea?!?!?!?? /end sarcasm

Really, all of these "this and this is overpowered and here's why for the bajillionthed time" threads should be deleted. Seriously, we all get it, now lets move on with our PvE, which is less imbalanced than PvP.

Nadia Roark · Oct 03, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I think the OPs lack of knowledge relating to Soul Reaping's current workings was already noted on the first or second page.

And you do know now that I'm not the OP, right? I have a few different ideas, which I thought I explained at length.